HANABIRA SOLUTION FORMAL ARGUMENTS

[futurologists]

FORMAL ARGUMENTS This is a follow-up to the proposal post, for characters to ICly argue to Youmi, Nama, and Doro why Hathaway's proposed solution is a good idea. The winning vote was to propose the empresses marry each other, so all arguments must be in support of this solution. Arguments are due 28 February 23:59 UTC. WHAT DO I DO? Submit a unique argument for why the empresses should marry in the comments below. Arguments must be between 50-250 words and must be submitted as a summary of what your character would ICly say. Characters may submit arguments in a group or solo. There will be a subthread for anyone looking to group up below! UNIQUE ARGUMENT? This means that your argument should not be for the same reasons as anyone else. Because each submission must be a unique argument, you may only be involved in one comment, so choose carefully! For example, if the solution was to make the Hanabiran national animal a hamster, you could not argue it should be because hamsters are cute if that was already someone's argument; you must choose a different argument, such as hamsters' propensity for chewing wood would be a boon to the logging industry. You may choose a related topic as well; for example, hamsters being cute because they are small if someone argued that hamsters are cute because they're soft. WHAT ARGUMENTS NEED TO BE MADE? Nama and Youmi must be given solid reasons why their marriage will benefit each empress and empire. If you need help thinking of something they could offer each other, looking over the dossier description of each empire may help. THE SOLUTION WAS ALREADY VOTED ON. WHY DO WE NEED ARGUMENTS? The mods will be using an algorithm to determine how effective the solution is. What the empresses think of it and how successful it is depends on both quantity and quality of the arguments, as well as other ~secret~ factors. In other words, if only one person submits an argument (and that argument is "because I like hamsters"), the solution will fail. So get brainstorming! I DIDN'T VOTE FOR IT, BUT I STILL WANT TO ARGUE FOR IT. CAN I? Absolutely! Characters who decide to help the majority despite their qualms may certainly argue for it. WHAT IF MY CHARACTER DOESN'T AGREE? If your character wouldn't argue for the marriage solution, then they certainly don't have to! If they would actively argue against it or for a different solution, you may handwave that they did, but we are only accepting arguments for the winning solution.

Comments

PLOTTING/LFG.

[futurologists]

Discussion and everything else goes here! If you're looking to group up with people with similar arguments, you can do so here.

[refashioned]

Hi! Perhaps surprisingly, Veronica is actually looking to work with someone else who has more diplomacy experience than her to put forth an argument. I was thinking Daenerys because of the way things went on a log. Veronica could also do her own argument separate from that, but would be backing Dany's, too. Anyway, yes!

[reposing]

Basically Alucard will support both ladies, but it might be good to have a list of all the pros that go with marriage. tax breaks

[refashioned]

Yes! I can take a glance at the dossier later and put it together, unless you wouldn't mind doing that yourself.

[refashioned]

OK, so after seeing other people's approaches, Veronica would personally want to go the more emotional route—at least on the surface. Nama is in a position where she could use some assistance from a powerful ruler, and Youmi is lonely, and has been strong for many years. Nama had indicated an interest in reaching out, while Youmi accepted that. Not to be presumptuous, blah blah blah.

But she would want to talk about how these cultures can complement one another, and that they don't necessarily need to be treated as things to force together, but unique, powerful entities that can either grow together or take root in its own direction.

The list is as follows (consider these the pros!):

- Complementary trade goods (since someone else would be handling this, she'd just cover it)
Complementary cultures (militaristic versus artistic - they can draw from one another in developing their own and uniquely fortified front)
- Two women coming together will show their adherence to continuing and perpetuating the strength of a matriarchy, rather than possibly setting that aside because the sea clan is less rigid.
- The progress of the Sea Clan and their innovation can only make the Mountain Clan stronger.
- Meanwhile, the Mountain Clan will understand the significance of tradition, so that this idea of fostering two, unique identities and communities can be used as a strength rather than a weakness.

Overall, she would be emphasizing the idea of uniting their powers. Nama is a weaker ruler with a stronger military, while Youmi is a stronger ruler but with a less militarized group (albeit just as respectable—she wouldn't be out to offend Youmi). Their people have more to gain from one another than to lose. I think a lot of her proposal would have bullet points like the above, pointed out quickly, and then focusing on how to have the cultures blend, how they can benefit one another, how they can compromise so that both sides feel as if they're equally recognized, etc.

Some of the ideas are: rotating capitals, having people marry one another, maybe having culture festivals and exchanges. There can also be certain holidays to respect and celebrate the cultures of each country, and those holidays would be honored and respected in each. Perhaps educational institutions where children can go to the other side and learn art or vice versa with the military. Perhaps a fostering of educational institutions in general to encourage this. At first, there may be laws in order to foster the differences in how men are treated, so that people know they have to adhere the laws in a specific province/state/etc. I'm not sure how to go about this. But yes, a lot of it will be "you need to win over your people but really go via the children so that the future of your great nation can really bloom and flower" and so forth.

ADDENDUM

[sololoquy]

Kylo and a few other people who were feeling the marriage proposal were wanting to add on the caveat that theyd stay and help deal with the rebels — thoughts?

[forcevisions]

related to this addendum idk how the algorithm will work (i.e., if we should prioritize breaking up arguments over multiple comments / people suggesting) or not but that's something worth discussing about it too.

Addendum the second: Cultural Assimilation

[refashioned]

After writing stuff out and thinking on it, I think Veronica's argument will be in favor of cultural assimilation, as I've illustrated already. That's what she can argue about the best, and it's less diplomacy-focused so that that stuff can be handled by other folks! A lot of people got her thinking about this the most and it's what speaks to her.

If anyone has any additional points and would like to group up, LMK

[notthatjason]

If she wants Jason there as support he's game. He could possibly add examples from his own experience and near miss with a civil war and how there's precedence for this sort of cultural assimilation working out in other places?

in a better place this time

[conqueress]

I think Veronica would be opposed to a point here, judging by the IC discussions (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think otherwise, Dany's views are largely complementary to her own.

DESPITE YOUR COMPETING CLAIMS, YOU DESIRE PEACE
Neither Empress desires war. Each is wise enough to see that such a move would be detrimental to their own sides, as well as to the neutral Flowerlands. It is important that further damage to the fertile soil of the Flowerlands and the people who farm it should be avoided.

YOU RESPECT ONE ANOTHER
Rather than act upon the attack at the Spring Festival, Nama did not seek retribution; she informed Youmi of the attack and placed the decision firmly into her hands. In return, Youmi willingly received the correspondence, and made a proclamation to her people that further attempts at escalation would not be tolerated. Marriages built upon respect beget peace and prosperity.

A WEDDING BETWEEN YOU IS A BENEFICIAL WEDDING BETWEEN YOUR EMPIRES
- Youmi has ruled the Empire of the Crashing Wave for a decade, and has overseen seafaring ventures, the arts, and cultural innovation. The blood of warriors runs through Nama's veins, and she has held rule over a strong and proud people, devoted to the land and its fruits. These qualities need not be at odds; rather, they only enrich one another.
- The laws of queenship need not be threatened through marriage. Show the people that you are committed to a peaceful bond between you, wed in law and in symbol, and let them know they need not fear the coming change.
- The Sea Clan has established trade with other cultures across the sea. Let the Mountain Clan mount voyages overseas to forge partnerships with new peoples.
- The Sea Clan has defended itself well and ably, yet should the Mountain Clan be allied with them and come to their aid in a time of war, the two clans would be unstoppable in battle.
- United clans are paramount, should famine, sickness, or invasion befall Hanabira.
- She believes they should consider the matter of succession for the future. Wedding a member of their own blood to one another to produce an heir would prevent any one empire from claiming the heir for their own; therein lies the power of mingling blood. She would say that if the empresses should object to this idea, that they choose two women in a similarly balanced union.

FINALLY
- She would also propose that a number of incentives be offered to the people before any wedding were announced, such that the frightened people among them may be soothed and discouraged from joining rebel factions. Suggestions for these incentives will come from trade proposals, to be brought forward by other guild members, and in suggestions for bringing their people together through equitable means, to be brought forward by Veronica.

REBEL SCUM

[sololoquy]

The Star Wars(tm) support the marriage as a primary, but not a final solution. They will argue that the uprising will continue until they are somehow corralled, and will offer the guild’s assistance on the matter. :D

[forcevisions]

here are some collected concepts from the pre-dinner thread:

we understand why nama might be hesitant to accept the marriage: her society values strength through military victory, and the rebels at the heavenly summit prove it. they may struggle to accept marriage as a valid alternative path to peace, and as a young empress, she must consider that those rebels might see her as a traitor who is selling out their people by compromising with a clan that threatens their way of life and their sovereignty.

however, it's obvious nama doesn't want that, or she wouldn't have trusted us w the letters in the first place; she wants to cooperate with youmi, and so those seeking a military solution will never be satisfied.

what's more, the rebels are disorganized. they act out of fear to create chaos. a marriage will not satisfy them because no peace treatise at all would satisfy them; they have no demands to satisfy but their own panic over change. for that reason, should the empresses wed, ophelia will provide any necessary assistance to the already considerable efforts of their combined forces in putting down the uprising in the mountain clan.

take or leave what's useful.

Re: REBEL SCUM

[datapoint]

UNRELATED but if kylo ren is with the star wars group, does that leave aloy with the pearls? because i would like to use them in an argument c:

TRADE

[datapoint]

Aloy is going to argue that joining the empires will be beneficial for trade, specifically in regards to what the sea clan has to offer. If anyone else wants to group up, lmk! Even though she's not a Negotiator, Aloy is pretty good at using her words, but she could always use a buddy or three.

draft

[datapoint]

Aizawa and Aloy will be arguing that unification will benefit both empires in terms of trade.

While both empires have access to natural resources, combining them both will allow each unfettered access to the other's geographically rare assets. Of particular note is the Sea Clan's access to fish and pearls -- the latter of which Aloy can provide physical evidence of, having been provided a sample of two massive pearls from pearl divers.

In addition to gaining each other's resources, merging the empires will eliminate the skirmishes in the Flowerlands, reducing the risk of travel between the Empire of the Crashing Wave and the Land of Celestial Mountains, reducing costs all around. They will also have the additional benefit of each other's foreign trading partners for expanded routes and customers. Aizawa will further argue that unifying the empires in this way and creating a free-flowing trade would produce a robust shared economy, thereby bringing stability and prosperity.

POLITICS.

[dbag]

Rhys would want to focus on what Nama and Youmi could offer each other politically! For example, Youmi is a more experienced leader and Nama could learn from her, as well as have a strong leader behind all of the decisions she makes. Nama would also finally be able to get out from under her advisors' thumbs once she married Youmi. On the other hand, Nama is young and fresh with new ideas and likely more military experience, all of which Youmi could use.

If anyone else has anything political to mention (or just agrees with Rhys's points), I'm definitely up for grouping up!! c:

[cachemoney]

mention how hot it would be too

MILITARY

[cachemoney]

Fiona will be arguing that each other's military strengths will fill in weaknesses that the other has. She's a Negotiator so she's got that part down, but anyone with military experience who wants to back up her statements or help brainstorm are welcome!

[forcevisions]

looking at our other ideas, i see a lack of stuff specifically targeted towards youmi, so i'd say really play up how youmi and the sea clan will benefit from the mountain clan's military in particular. maybe mention their quick response to the attack at the festival specifically?

not sure if this fits with the military angle BUT...

[notthatjason]

Jason could add to Negotiator power? He's been reminded a lot about his own experiences with a near civil war and could possibly add to this conversation by explaining that the land he comes from was in a similar situation and that the two groups had to come together in order to defeat a great enemy. He'd point out that not everyone was happy with it at first, but that the combined combat strength and experience of the two groups is what helped them prevail.

He might also mention that while it wasn't a marriage -- the two groups in question DID have an exchange of leaders to learn about each other and learn to trust each other that way. It worked out well for them and he has a strong feeling the same could happen here.

draft

[cachemoney]

Fiona, Jason, Lucina, and Zarya will be aruging that unification will benefit both empires in terms of strengthening each other's military.

Each empire has different, but equally strong military powers that, on merging, would now belong to each other as well. The Sea Clan's naval expertise would be useful for the landlocked Mountain Clan, and the Mountain Clan's overall military prowess would be a boon for the Sea Clan. Of particular note is the Mountain Clan's immediate action during the ambush at the festival, which surely cut down on the number of casualties.

Jason will add that in his own homeland, two rival groups came together to defeat a shared enemy with their combined military strength and experience. If they hadn't allied with each other, they surely would have been destroyed. With this evidence in mind, they'll posit that there will be no enemy the Sea and Mountain Clans can't defeat together.

(Zarya in particular is so passionate about this argument that she has tears in her eyes, if that will tug at their heartstrings.)

FLOWERLANDS

[theseuschip]

Having totally not read the guy’s mail, Simon gathered Nama is close to Doro, both of whom are listening to Ophelia's pitch, and that in addition to mentioning her attempt to reach out to Youmi, her letter to Doro expressed a lot of concern for the Flowerlands’ safety during the skirmishes, to the extent that in his half-written reply he had to remind her that sending Mountain Clan samurai would make matters worse. So, presumably, they’d want to consider that the union of the empires would leave the Flowerlands bookended by powerful allies, and the Empresses now both extended family of its ruler. The Flowerlands can’t very well just move after the Merging left it literally sandwiched between the two empires, so this is the best way to protect it when it’s in the vulnerable position of geographically surrounded by two larger empires: give both a vested interest in its safety.

As a bonus, both empires covet the Flowerlands’ resources and this eliminates the tug-of-war between the three of them and the threat of the Flowerlands just being swallowed up by one empire, which would both be bad for the Flowerlands and deny the other empire a slice of the trade pie.

The Flowerlands will be in the literal middle of all this, so there’s no avoiding them during all this cultural exchange stuff, but they remain an independent territory, so they don’t threaten the empires’ matriarchal values. They’re just more secure, and therefore also in a better position to trade. If Doro's amenable to it, they can sell that sweet, sweet Flowerlands dirt (and whatever else they have there??).

Ideally whatever of this is useful would be phrased in such a way that it isn’t super obvious that somebody in Ophelia read the stuff on Doro’s desk. Super ideally, somebody else likes the sound of this and is down to clown with saying it publicly in front of ethereal royalty from another dimension instead of Simon doing it (but whatever he’s a team player) (but for real though).

A UNITED FRONT (AGAINST WEIRD SHIT)

[pummelling]

As an addendum to points already raised in the military/wedding arguments, Jin would argue for the value of a united front in the face of Weird Magic Shit™, brought on by the Youmi escort group's encounter with the forest spirit. (BONUS POINTS, HE'S A NEGOTIATOR.)

- Showing off feathers collected from the forest spirit, he'd mention that it was set off by bloodshed caused by these political disputes. Keeping the peace through unifying the kingdoms would prevent spirits and/or gods from being angered by their actions any further.

- He'd also reference the forest spirit's spell over the creatures and animals in the forest, suggesting that there could be more spirits or beings with abilities beyond the capabilities or understanding of either empress. Joining both kingdoms into one could keep dealings with unknown threats consistent. Jin would use a simplified version of events in his world* as an example: when magical beings from a strange land attempted to conquer his country and surrounding countries, warriors from every nation united to drive them off and keep all peoples safe.

- His final point, building on the second, would be that a formal joining of the kingdoms would prevent them from being turned against each other due to any outside influences. Citing events from his world** again: when, a generation later, one kingdom sought to pacify malevolent gods by basically throwing an ally under the bus, both countries were still nearly destroyed and foreign relations between the two remain fractured. Merging, moreso than allying, would keep this from being a thing.

*this is only sort of what happened, but the empresses don't need to know that
**this is also only sort of what happened, and the empresses STILL don't need to know that

If anyone wants to join in on this or add something else lemme know!! :9

[rhinostagros]

Laphicet will be joining in on this, since he's a spiritual being himself. But since he can't communicate with the locals, he'll be relaying his thoughts to Jin and the rest of this group.

IDK IF THESE ARE HELPFUL but he's mostly using his own experiences as an example to +1 everything...

- He'll support keeping the peace and preventing angry spirits/gods! And bring up knowledge from his own world: the spirits are affected by humans' impurities/negative emotions (in this case, the bloodshed!) and turn into mindless, raging monsters when they can't take enough of it.

- He wasn't present for the forest spirit battle, but he believes there are very likely other spirits or supernatural beings that could be both benevolent and hostile. He helped a sea clan fisherman, who thanked him and left him offerings, which leads him to believe there might be more spirits present.

[tormado]

Amado's gonna wanna join this argument. He was present for the spirit fight, he'd wanna add his own feather to any others that Jin is showing and relay his own experience fighting the spirit, i.e. that it was ridiculously dangerous and totally chaotic and completely avoidable. He'd wanna press the points that the forest spirit was really, really dangerous, Empress Youmi would've been in serious danger if Ophelia hadn't been there to help escort her, people were still badly hurt anyway (he would cite helping patch people up after the fight was over), and the messed up thing about it is, if there hadn't been so much fighting in the Flowerlands, they probably never would've angered the spirit in the first place. What's done is done, but they can't afford to risk angering other spirits like that by allowing the fighting to continue, it would just lead to more bloodshed from the people of both clans and the Flowerlands and at the rate it's going, total devastation of the Flowerlands themselves (citing the crops and livestock that have been badly affected by the fighting in the Flowerlands).